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c o n t i n u e d
You state matter-of-factly that both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, now Sinn Fein MPs, were both in the IRA. Isn't that rather controversial?
Yup. But it doesn't come as any surprise. The surprise would be if they had hadn't been in the IRA.
But they deny it.
McGuinness doesn't really deny it. He was convicted twice in the early '70s of IRA membership.
What about Adams, who has denied it repeatedly?
Adams has never been convicted of membership, though the British brought a case against him which was dropped. Those who are in a position to know, like Sean MacStiofain, chief of the staff at the time of the secret 1972 IRA meeting with then-Northern Ireland Secretary William Whitelaw in London, suggest otherwise. He said that the delegation that met with Whitelaw was an IRA delegation, there were no Sinn Fein people on it. I say, "Martin McGuinness, IRA?" and he says, "Yes, Of course." And I say "Gerry Adams?" And he says, "All IRA." So do you take Gerry Adams' word or do you take the word of the man who was their military commander at the time and who put the delegation together?
Why must he insist he's not and has never been a member then? Why does Sinn Fein deny it's the political wing of the IRA?
What Sinn Fein is trying to do is distance itself from the IRA for political reasons, to get into all-party talks. But it's absolute nonsense because they are different faces of the same organization. The reason that Adams denies it is that if he admitted it, he'd be convicted and the last place that Gerry Adams wants to be at the moment is in jail.
How important has the American role in Northern Ireland been?
Irish Americans have viewed the IRA as the IRA viewed itself. They saw the IRA as being the historical descendant of the IRA that many of the older people, like the George Harrisons (a leading IRA supporter in the U.S. who arranged arms shipments) knew from the '30s. Irish-Americans knew their money was going for guns. That's why they gave them money.
And the Clinton administration?
Absolutely critical in the current peace process. What Clinton did was act as guarantor. He told Adams, through his security advisors, look, you get your men to end their bombing campaign and we will give you -- i.e. Sinn Fein -- moral and political support and make sure the Brits don't screw you. That's why Clinton was so deeply pissed off, to say the least, when the Canary Wharf bomb went off last year and the first cease-fire ended.
When you say "get your men," you mean the IRA, even though the only way Adams could get into the States was as leader of Sinn Fein?
Of course. Washington had no doubt that Adams was IRA because there'd be no point in dealing with him otherwise.
What about the Canary Wharf bombing, which, as you say, "pissed off" Clinton? What did Adams know about it?
Adams and McGuinness must have known that a decision had been made to end the cease-fire. It is inconceivable that they would not have known that the IRA had made a decision to go back to "the war." But they would not have known where the attack would have taken place or when it would have taken place.
Why did they want to go back to war?
I almost believe the reason that Canary Wharf happened was to prevent a split in the IRA.
How so?
All the IRA are hawks. But some are more hawkish than others. After 17 months of a cease-fire, with no progress, with no talks, obstacle after obstacle, as they saw it, being out in their way, the hardest men would say, "The only thing the Brits understand is a bomb." So the Canary Wharf bomb was probably agreed to as a message that they were fed up with being messed about. I suspect that Adams and McGuinness would have been party to that debate.
You conclude the documentary by saying, "The euphoria belongs to the politicians, not the soldiers." Why?
Well, because the soldiers are still waiting on the sidelines. They will only hand over their weapons, or decommission or bury them, when and if there is a settlement. They are an army and they are waiting for their orders from their commanders.
Who are ...?
In the broad military and political sense, Adams and McGuinness.
How do you see the future of the peace process?
Peace has to be out there on the horizon somewhere beckoning, otherwise Adams and McGuinness could never sell it to the IRA. They recognize they're not going to have a united Ireland in the near future, like today or tomorrow or next May. But that doesn't mean that in 10 years' time the situation may not change.
What needs to happen in the next 10 years?
The Unionists have to recognize the necessity for cross-border institutions that actually mean something. The Republican movement has to accept that there will be no united Ireland in the immediate future and compromise by agreeing to a locally devolved government. Basically, it's like the abortive Sunningdale agreement of the 1970s, but with rather more weight to it. It has to offer the Republicans the possibility of evolution towards their goal. It's Michael Collins (the IRA leader who made the Ulster/Eire partition agreement with the British in 1921) all over again. One just hopes that Mr. Adams and Mr. McGuinness don't meet the fate of Mr. Collins. Their great achievement this time is they've brought the movement with them. But they will not try and sell a settlement they know the movement won't buy. That's critical.
SALON | Oct. 21, 1997
Ros Davidson is a regular contributor to Salon.
Peace in Northern Ireland?
Join the discussion in the Politics thread in Table Talk.

T A B L E+T A L K Is the Sierra Club racist for supporting cuts in immigration? Join the debate in Headlines. D A I L Y+Q U O T E Frogs heads to go R E C E N T L Y Commissioner George Will? By Drew Lindsay The Greek-spouting conservative elitist could be just what baseball's beer-and-bratwurst crowd needs (10/20/97) Free the Boulder two! By Mark Hunter The parents of JonBenet Ramsey are being railroaded (10/17/97) Armchair warriors for Zion? By Jonathan Broder From the comfort of their homes, wealthy U.S. Jews are helping to destroy the Middle East peace process (10/16/97) The next Vietnam war? By Thi Lam A peasant revolt threatens the communist regime (10/15/97) Spaced out By David Beers It's time to grow up and ground the astronauts (10/14/97) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Newsreal Archives - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
		c o n t i n u e d You state matter-of-factly that both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, now Sinn Fein MPs, were both in the IRA. Isn't that rather controversial? Yup. But it doesn't come as any surprise. The surprise would be if they had hadn't been in the IRA. But they deny it. McGuinness doesn't really deny it. He was convicted twice in the early '70s of IRA membership. What about Adams, who has denied it repeatedly? Adams has never been convicted of membership, though the British brought a case against him which was dropped. Those who are in a position to know, like Sean MacStiofain, chief of the staff at the time of the secret 1972 IRA meeting with then-Northern Ireland Secretary William Whitelaw in London, suggest otherwise. He said that the delegation that met with Whitelaw was an IRA delegation, there were no Sinn Fein people on it. I say, "Martin McGuinness, IRA?" and he says, "Yes, Of course." And I say "Gerry Adams?" And he says, "All IRA." So do you take Gerry Adams' word or do you take the word of the man who was their military commander at the time and who put the delegation together? Why must he insist he's not and has never been a member then? Why does Sinn Fein deny it's the political wing of the IRA? What Sinn Fein is trying to do is distance itself from the IRA for political reasons, to get into all-party talks. But it's absolute nonsense because they are different faces of the same organization. The reason that Adams denies it is that if he admitted it, he'd be convicted and the last place that Gerry Adams wants to be at the moment is in jail. How important has the American role in Northern Ireland been? Irish Americans have viewed the IRA as the IRA viewed itself. They saw the IRA as being the historical descendant of the IRA that many of the older people, like the George Harrisons (a leading IRA supporter in the U.S. who arranged arms shipments) knew from the '30s. Irish-Americans knew their money was going for guns. That's why they gave them money. And the Clinton administration? Absolutely critical in the current peace process. What Clinton did was act as guarantor. He told Adams, through his security advisors, look, you get your men to end their bombing campaign and we will give you -- i.e. Sinn Fein -- moral and political support and make sure the Brits don't screw you. That's why Clinton was so deeply pissed off, to say the least, when the Canary Wharf bomb went off last year and the first cease-fire ended. When you say "get your men," you mean the IRA, even though the only way Adams could get into the States was as leader of Sinn Fein? Of course. Washington had no doubt that Adams was IRA because there'd be no point in dealing with him otherwise. What about the Canary Wharf bombing, which, as you say, "pissed off" Clinton? What did Adams know about it? Adams and McGuinness must have known that a decision had been made to end the cease-fire. It is inconceivable that they would not have known that the IRA had made a decision to go back to "the war." But they would not have known where the attack would have taken place or when it would have taken place. Why did they want to go back to war? I almost believe the reason that Canary Wharf happened was to prevent a split in the IRA. How so? All the IRA are hawks. But some are more hawkish than others. After 17 months of a cease-fire, with no progress, with no talks, obstacle after obstacle, as they saw it, being out in their way, the hardest men would say, "The only thing the Brits understand is a bomb." So the Canary Wharf bomb was probably agreed to as a message that they were fed up with being messed about. I suspect that Adams and McGuinness would have been party to that debate. You conclude the documentary by saying, "The euphoria belongs to the politicians, not the soldiers." Why? Well, because the soldiers are still waiting on the sidelines. They will only hand over their weapons, or decommission or bury them, when and if there is a settlement. They are an army and they are waiting for their orders from their commanders. Who are ...? In the broad military and political sense, Adams and McGuinness. How do you see the future of the peace process? Peace has to be out there on the horizon somewhere beckoning, otherwise Adams and McGuinness could never sell it to the IRA. They recognize they're not going to have a united Ireland in the near future, like today or tomorrow or next May. But that doesn't mean that in 10 years' time the situation may not change. What needs to happen in the next 10 years? The Unionists have to recognize the necessity for cross-border institutions that actually mean something. The Republican movement has to accept that there will be no united Ireland in the immediate future and compromise by agreeing to a locally devolved government. Basically, it's like the abortive Sunningdale agreement of the 1970s, but with rather more weight to it. It has to offer the Republicans the possibility of evolution towards their goal. It's Michael Collins (the IRA leader who made the Ulster/Eire partition agreement with the British in 1921) all over again. One just hopes that Mr. Adams and Mr. McGuinness don't meet the fate of Mr. Collins. Their great achievement this time is they've brought the movement with them. But they will not try and sell a settlement they know the movement won't buy. That's critical. SALON \| Oct. 21, 1997 Ros Davidson is a regular contributor to Salon. Peace in Northern Ireland? Join the discussion in the Politics thread in Table Talk.